My Truth About Being A Christian In Today’s Society: Letter to Atheists
Posted: Wednesday, July 27, 2011
by Fran Larson
http://www.franniesquotes.com/
I grew up going to a Baptist Church. When I was 16 years of age, I accepted Christ as my savior and my life became meaningful. When I married and had children, we took them to church about 3 times a week.
Now I do not attend church, nor do any of my adult children. What happened? Did we stop believing?
I can only speak for myself. No, I did not stop believing. In fact, my beliefs are more intact than ever, but the formal church life as I know it, leaves me disappointed and hungry for real truth.
I will try my best to explain. The church that my children grew up in and we were charter members of was also a churh that produced events that cannot be erased from my mind (or my children’s) It turns out that their youth leader at church was having an affair with the minister. In fact, the minister used the “counseling” process to take advantage of hurting women by presenting himself as a “lover.” One of the young women was hospitalized because she tried to take her own life. The worse part was that when the minister was asked to leave, he didn’t understand “why?”
Jim and I tried to get involved in a church after that. We attended one of the “big” churches, which seems to be the trend. We woke up one Sunday morning to find out that the minister of the church (for 10 years) had been arrested for having drugs.
I am guessing by now you are smiling and thinking how naïve she is. Yes I was naïve and still am to some degree (My adult children remind me of that).
If you are an atheist, by now, you may be smiling and thinking, yes, that is the reason I am not a Christian. They are all hypocrites.
Yes, I forgive the ministers and others who were at fault, because I am a sinner, also. However, for me my moral compass is different than the two preachers, so going to church presents some problems for me. (Since then, I personally know of many similar church experiences. Affairs, injustices, dogma, rules, judgmental attitudes, etc. are all too common in today’s churches.) As I say this, I realize I myself am being judgmental, but shouldn’t Christian leaders be moral? Is that asking too much?
I could see why Atheists are looking at Christianity and seeing that we don’t practice what we preach, because we don’t. Paul warns us about how we influence others:
New Living Translation (©2007)
So if what I eat causes another believer to sin, I will never eat meat again as long as I live--for I don't want to cause another believer to stumble.
(Note: “meat” means whatever I am doing in my life that causes others to not believe.)
It pains me to say that before I retired from the work world, I would prefer to work with “non-Christians.” This would take another article to explain. Also, I have been “set-up” by Christians at least twice. I could go on and on.
As I write all of this, the delimi I have is that I am “judging” and talking about people in my own belief system. That brings another question. Are all Christians really Christians?
English Standard Version (©2001)
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:23)
My point is if I could be discouraged about professing Christians, how much more so would an Atheist be discouraged?
So, if you are an Atheist, I understand more than you think I do. I am sorry if I have caused you to see Christianity as hypocritical and judgmental. I am trying not to cram it down your throat, although I will never be ashamed of my beliefs. I am trying not to be hypocritical.
No, I cannot prove anything. I know both love and my God are there, but like the wind, cannot be seen.
I am a human being.
That is why I need God.
This Article has been viewed 160 times. (Not updated in real-time.)
Top-level comments on this article: (6 total)I love your honesty, Fran. You speak my sentiments exactly.
I have to wonder if at some point we're going to have to come up with another word that means 'follower of the teachings of Jesus' to use instead of 'Christian'. Almost everything we understand today about Christianity comes from some time after Constantine made Christianity the state religion, so in the minds of most Christians, Christianity is an institution. I'm pretty sure that Jesus didn't come to Earth to start an institution.
Before Constantine and 316 AD, following Jesus was about how you treated others. Today it seems you can claim the Christian label if you say you believe the right thing, and how you treat others doesn't even come into question.
To my point, recently I read an article about how to be a good Christian, and not one of the items in the list had anything to do with how to treat others. I think that article shows that what we commonly refer to as Christianity has nothing to do with following the teachings of Christ.
Did you know that every single time recorded in the New Testament that Jesus talked about someone going to hell, He never mentioned what that person believed, but 100% of the time he talked about how that person treated others. Yet for some reason, we think if we believe the right thing, we're safe from the fires of Hell.
Anyway, don't get me started!Hi Bruce, you know I love you, but how can you say Jesus never talked about what we believe in reference to heaven and hell?
Jesus was very specific - we must believe in Him and that He is the Son of God. Belief in Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior has everything to do with salvation. The book of John namely, but also the other Gospels. I'm a bit confused by this statement from you. help me :-)Hi Teresa. Please give me a reference where Jesus talked about going to Hell as a result of what someone believed, instead of how someone treated others. I think you've assumed too much.Hi Bruce -
John 3:3, John 3:5, John 3:11-21; John 5:24; John all of chapter 6; John all of chapter 10; John 11:25; John 14:6; John 17:3; Revelation chapters 1-3; and then there are all of the epistles that confirm and what Jesus taught, and Revelation chapters 20-21 that talk about those that are not in the Lambs book of life are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. Also 1 & 2nd Corinthians, and Ephesians that talk about those who receive Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is our faith in Christ that gets our name in the Lambs book of Life. The entire New testament teaches this doctrine. Why would Jesus have to die, if who is was/is and what he did, does not matter? Jesus also said the work we are to do is believe in the Son. What do you think I have assumed? In relation to what the Bible teaches, or what I thought it was you believed? Thanks B :-)Tell me what Jesus said, Teresa. We can debate all day who is included in the Lambs Book of Life, but what did Jesus say? I don't see one reference as to what Jesus said we should believe to stay out of Hell. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but what does that have to do with what we believe?What about all the other references to how we must treat others? Do you dismiss them in favor of Christianity being about what we 'believe'?Hi Bruce,
It's not my intent to debate, just to understand your perpective and undersatnding of the passages listed, and the whole of the Bible about Jesus being the redeemer of man kind. It's like I always study and take into account new information so that I can grow in the knowledge of God's word. I do not dimiss how we treat others, that is essential to the proof that we are saved. But we have to go back to the very foundation of why Jesus came and the understanding that we are all born spiritually dead and our sinful nature separates us from God. I see that the entire Bible teaches that we need a redeemer, and evidence of our redemption is obedience to Jesus and the path he layed out for us, not just with his specific words, but his words to us through the prophets and the Apostles, who not not contradict Jesus, but rather expand and confirm his teaching. So with this said, here is what Jesus said.
"Unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" John 3:3 he goes on to say that being born again is done by the Spirit of God. he goes on to say that this is through belief in Jesus .."That whosover believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" We are redeemed (saved) by grace through faith) Ephesians 2:8-10. Jesus also said , " Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." When Jesus said those who do not believe in him are condemned alreadly, continueing with his statements about passing from death to life, along with what Paul says in Ephesians chapter two about being dead in our tresspasses and sin are made alive in Christ through grace because of our faith. Jesus said he holds the keys to death and hades, and in the final judgement, the dead are cast into the lake of fire. Thus the need to be born again by the spirit of God to escape hell. We need forgiveness of our sin. We are justifified by the blood of Jesus over our lives, not by our works, our works are evidence. Both James and Paul taught that our faith without works is dead, and that works not coupled with faith are not accepted by God. God told us in Isaiah that our righteouness is like used menstral rags, and not accepted by God without the covering of the blood of Jesus. These are not assumptions, they are written throughout the Scriptures.
All these foundations Jesus layed out lead to his teaching on how we are to treat others. As he said, we will be known by our fruit. If going to heaven instead of hell was only based on how we treat others than why did Jesus say this " Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father in heaven, many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name , cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name, and then I will declare to him, I never knew you, deaprt from me you who practice lawlessness" The key here is "those who do the will of my father" So what is the will of His Father? He tells us in John chapter 6:40 "and this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the son and believes in Him may have everlaszting life, and I will raise him up on the last day". (This is in other places too.)
There are only two places: heaven and hell. Those who are born again go to heaven and those who remain dead in there sin due to unbelief and not repenting, will go to hell. True believers will be have their works judged, but they are have been granted eternal life and entrance into heaven because of what Jesus did for them, not because of what they did. good works will be granted rewards (Corinthians). But those who are already condemned and dead will be judged for their works. But will not be granted into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said this in Revelation 21:6-8 " I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving and sinners, abomable, murders, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Obviously there is not enough room to list all the passages. but again, these speak to what Jesus said about being born again. We already have death, we must choose life, but I cannot see how we can conclude that the way into heaven is based only on how we treat people, or not treat people which leads to hell. If so, then why do we need a Savior? Anyway, this is my understanding. Please share with me your understanding of what Jesus meant by these teachings and instructions on believing and being born again. I hope you know this is in no way to challenge you or attack you, I'm glad to have this conversation with you, because I want to learn. If you didn't get bored, and you made it this far :-), I want you to know that I am sorry for how others have treated you and Jean. I think you guys are great people and trustworthy friends and whether we agree or not, I respect you guys and love you guys and will always be a friend to you (as long as you would have me - dont want to sound like I am doing you a favor :-) ) Anyway, thanks for bearing with me. I hope this helps you see where I am coming from. Hugs, TI appreciate you speaking kindly of me, Teresa, but honestly I find your response mildly insulting.
You know I know these Scriptures as well as you do, yet you fail to address my point. It's like I say, "the sky is blue" and you say I must be wrong because the grass is green. Yes, I know the grass is green, but you're not addressing the fact that the sky is blue.
I'm not trying to start a new doctrine here. God knows we already have too much doctrine. I'm saying when you look at all of Scripture, you're doctrine doesn't hold up. If your doctrine of 'belief is the only thing that matters' or even if your doctrine is 'belief is the first thing that matters' then Jesus contradicted your doctrine. Yes, we can find where Jesus supported your doctrine, but we can also find where He contradicted your doctrine.
In the NT, there are numerous examples of people who's sins were forgiven who didn't believe. There are numerous examples of people who did believe, who's sins weren't forgiven.
Re-read the NT with the above paragraph in mind instead of reading it from the traditional perspective that we've all, always been told. If you can handle it, it will blow your mind.
I'll warn you, in today's Christianity, it's all about belief. If you dare question that, you'll become reviled among Christians.
My assertion is that this is why today Christians can do the most hateful and/or greedy things, and still feel good about themselves. It's because they 'believe' the right thing.I'm sorry my comments insulted you, that was not my intent. You are saying that my understanding is incorrect, but I am not insulted by it at all. I asked, If my understanding in wrong, please give me your understanding so that I can take that into consideration. My question was what do you believe those to mean? I will read the New testament with your statment in mind, but it still does not answer my question - what then, does Jesus mean? Are you saying you believe Jesus can get to heaven without believing? Believe me Bruce, (and I thought you would already know this about me) I question everything. Which is why I am questioning you. I am a information gather-er (is that a word). I would hope that you would not continue to take my questions, or statements as insulting. I am just trying to gain another perspective. Maybe you are a bit on the defensive because you have been made to feel like you have to defend your positions by others, but I have never done that to you, and I am not doing that now. How can we help or lead others to what we believe is the truth if we get insulted? I know you know the Scriptures, that is precisely why I mentioned them (beside the fact you asked me to) and why I ask you how you take them to mean. Do you not think it is necessary to be born again? Again, I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended. I am trying to learn, I do hope you have known me long enough to know, it is my only motive. I have answered your questions with my understanding of the whole of Scripture, not individual verses of the Bible. But even still, I don't see how we can escape the first issue of being born again. If I am wrong, I would love your help. If you still feel insulted, I'm both sorry and hurt, because I thought you knew me a bit better than this.I'm not sure why you keep bringing up being 'born again'. I think this is an example of you assuming something means something because it's what you've always thought it meant. So the grass is green, what's that have to do with the sky being blue?
Are we born again because of what we believe? I submit that it's a change of beliefs, but it's more than just beliefs. Clearly, there are people who believe who do not have their sins forgiven. Someone who is born again sees the world differently, they understand the Kingdom of God is not about the rich and loud and powerful being great, but the servant, serving in humility and in secret being great. You know the Scripture, you know I'm right.
There are many who claim to be born again, they are 'believers', but have no problem bullying their way through life, taking advantage of the weak, exploiting the poor and the outcast and the sick. Are they born again? Is it because they don't believe the right thing, or because they don't do the right thing?You can say that if you believe the right thing, you will do the right thing. It doesn't take very long in Scripture or in real life to know that's not true.Because it's essential to the whole issue of heaven and hell. Thank you, you answered part of my question about what you believe it to mean. It's all I was asking for. I see it as been born by the Spirit of God and receiving the Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me into being the person God desires me, while giving me the ability to change my way of thinking. I don't think that we are born again for what we believe, I see it as for WHO we believe. And the evidence of being born again follows in what we believe God's word to teach, and what we do about it. In the broad sense, I agree with you, anyone can be born again in the manner in which you share, but I believe Jesus made it clear that in the biblical context of salvation, being born again is not an option. I agree, there are those who profess - but profession doesn't make it true, actions do. This is what I see the Bible to teach. It is God who searches the heart and he knows those who are not just hearers of the word but doers. That is why I have never, or will ever tell someone they are going to hell. Teaching what the bible says about both was a command from Jesus when he told his disciples and all followers to go out and preach the Gospel. BUT to tell a person they are going to hell is to claim final judgment on that person and I do acknowledge, and hate when Christians do that to others. Only God knows the beginning and end. I guess what is all comes down to is that everyone has their assumptions and reasons for what they believe. You tell me I assume too much, and that I am following the tradition of religion. But you are assuming as well - we all assume. And our assumptions lead to our beliefs and is what determines the way we chose to live. This is why I think its great to study and ask questions of each other - so we can all learn from eachother. I have learned a lot from you over the past few years, and even in this conversation. I don't regret it, I am thankful for it. Although I do feel sad that you thought I was insulting you. Thanks again for the encouragement to read through the New Testament again. You know I am in John, I am going to get started with Matthew. It's been a few months. I'm praying for wisdom and the Holy Spirit to show me new things. Blessings to you dear friend.Thanks, Teresa.Bruce I think that the scriptures you are asking about would be John 3:18; John 8:24, Mark 16:16, Hebrews 3:12 to name a few. Nevertheless, our beliefs form the basis for how we treat people. I see understand Fran's larger point of how professions of faith don't seem to be backed up by how people (who call themselves Christians) behave.
Some truly horrible things have been visited on humanity because of what people believed, but, conversely, some truly beautiful and transformational things have been achieved because of beliefs as well.Again, when Jesus talks about 'Hell', he refers to how people treat others. These references don't mention Hell. They may mention being condemned, but they don't mention Hell. Again, I think there is too much assumption going on here.No Bruce. It is not merely assumption or supposition. The Mark 16:16 says damned. It is from the greek word "katakrino" which also means condemned. In the fullest english rendering it means to judge against or sentence. I don't know how damned can be looked at as being anything other than what it means and condemned, according to everything I've studied, has the exact same meaning.
I have put a lot of thought into these things as well Bruce. I think, I have tried through my writings and in my personal life to shy away from many assumptions (as a matter of fact most of what I write is to try to challenge assumptions).
Without arguing greek context, what do you do with the 52-to-11 ratio of what Jesus said being how one treats others vs. what one believes?
The Christians around me treat others unlike them with hatred. That doesn't seem inline with what Jesus taught.Bruce, I think you are looking at the people around you and not listening to what I'm saying. I'm strictly dealing with the biblical text as honestly and openly as I can (without adding a particular spin to it). I didn't say that it isn't more important to treat people right than to subscribe to a list of do's and don'ts Americanized Christianity has unbiblically instituted. I have spent well over 20 years, professionally, addressing the issues of prejudice and bigotry, even among professed Christians. (and I have spent my whole life dealing with as a person of color).
I don't know if the 52-11 ratio is correct, but I agree that if a ratio like that exists it does show that a greater emphasis is placed on the 52. Nevertheless, the 52 does not negate the 11. That's all I'm saying.Thank you Edward. I'm tired of dealing with the 11 who think they can treat me & Jean like trash while I proclaim the 52.
That's all. I'm done.Ah, there it is my friend. I am sorry you and Jean have been treated like trash. You two mean a great deal to me. I had to learn a long time ago the difference between what people do in the name of Christ and Christ.
I have heard some of the most foul rhetoric about people coming from the mouths of people who professed a faith in Christ. My grandparent's saw people lynched by good "Christian" folk. In other words, I get what you are talking about.
Let those people go and all of their Pharisaical ravings---they have never truly represented Christ only a version of Christianity. In the narrative of Frederick Douglass, he makes this distinction of the Christianity of the cruel slave master and the Christianity of Christ and it is extremely compelling.
I'll leave you with this... in your pain forgive; in your frustration love. Take care friend.
I don't go to church Fran,however I consider myself as being very close to Jesus. Thanks for telling it like it is.
Hi Fran. It's so sad the things that are in the "organized church" Jesus said his body of believers is the church, and anywhere where two or three are gathered in his name, there he will be in the midst of Him. He commanded that Christians fellowship and meet with one another, he did not specify that it had to be in a building with a formal name on it. The key is fellowship and uncompomising belief and Him and His word. As Jesus said, "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. " And its true, it's not about being perfect, its about being real and casting away phoniness and self-righteousness. I'm sorry for your experiences, I am happy that imperfect man did not cause you to lose faith in a perfect God. Hugs, T
Fran, it is easy to confuse a religious conviction we each must explore with the faults of many institutional religions. Paul also reminded us that we should strive to be 'in the world not of the world'. No small feat for us mere humans- even harder for those who claim to be leaders of churches (any denominations). I fear too many folks fall into the temptation to give away their soul for others to manage. I guess the same can be said about any relationships; w/ God, politics, friends, etc. We always want it to be easy and folks take advantage of our faith for 'easy'. I guess like anything, faith must always be achieved through 'hard' to have any lasting value.
Nicely stated. Christianity isn't fashionable, and you have shown belief to be stronger than anything. Of course no one is perfect; yet think of this: Are all atheists truly atheist? Well done.
you are a human being, a spiritual being yes, we all are.
But athiest is a harsh word created by deceipt to influence ones to believe in something that is not there.
I believe there is no god because I believe life creates life not some god.
And bibles are a belief system of control written by liers long ago.
Did you know that all religions come from one religion,,,Muslim
How can anyone believe in that religion.
How can anyone whorship when they should believe in themselves, freedom, love
truth and freewill. Religion takes all of that away and conforms you into something
your not.
Believe in beings,,,why gods when he allows cruelty and suffering.
Love never allows that
We want your comments! If you can read this, you don't have javascript enabled, so you can't use this comment system. Please enable javascript.